Posts by Richard Oliver

130

Not a sympathizer

by Richard Oliver in

i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

Richard Oliver

Outlaw. That maybe so but I know for a fact that the people I had told I was gay in confidence were the only people who knew. At that time, people in the hall would talk to me about girls and other things that indicated that they had no idea that I was gay. Again, I am not saying that this is the same experience for everyone. I can only speak intelligently about my experience as a gay man who was a Witness.

130

Not a sympathizer

by Richard Oliver in

i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

Richard Oliver

I had told Elders, COs and other people that I would rather not say. I told some family members and chose not to tell others. I told some people in my halls and chose not to tell others. In the gay community this is not all that uncommon. I have plenty of gay friends who never were witnesses or don't have religious family members, who they have never come out too. Coming out is a very personal and private matter for every gay person and they have to tell the people who they want and not tell the people they don't want to.

I have known openly gay witnesses, actually a number of them. They have had their struggles with feelings of self-worth and desires to leave the JWs. Some have left for a time, some have left for good, some have stayed. I know I left for a while went back and then left again. But issues with self-worth and self-hatred is a common struggle in the gay community, even for gay people who were not brought up religious.

130

Not a sympathizer

by Richard Oliver in

i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

Richard Oliver

I am not trying to get into a discussion or an argument about homosexuality and Witnesses. No matter what you say, I won't feel that Witnesses as a whole are homophobic. Do I believe that they think that it is a sin and you can't be a witness in good standing and practicing homosexual activities? Yes, that is a pure fact.

Now for myself, as a gay man, my personal view of homophobia may be different than people on here. Everyone has their own definition of homophobia, either if they are gay or straight. I view homophobia as the verbal or physical assault of gay people because of their sexual desires. Actively working against the equal treatment of gay people in society, not in religion, but in society. Preventing them from achieving the same rights and privileges as straight people. So my view of it is, voting against or protesting gay marriage, the physical assault of gay people, hurling of gay slurs against gay people.

Never have I seen Witnesses, as a whole or even a majority of people, do anything that I would consider as homophobic. Do a lot of Witnesses not like gay people? Probably. But not liking gay people doesn't make them homophobic in my view. Again my view of homophobia is probably different from others. Some may view my definition as too lax while others view it as to strict. That is each persons opinion.

Have I heard bad things come out of Witnesses mouths about gay people? I have. In my experience is that a minority over a majority of the instances? In my experience it is. Have I been hurt by people's comments about gay people? Of course, even by some high-ranking leaders from Witnesses.

I also really don't like it when people bring up comments from Watchtower publications prior to about 1975, when it comes to gay people. It diminishes the reality that most of society viewed gay people in the same light. I even know that the DSM didn't take out Homosexuality from their diagnostic list of mental illnesses till about mid-1970s. I think when people use those old publications to claim that Watchtower is so homophobic, minimizes the fact that gay people struggled in society as a whole up to that point and even beyond that.

130

Not a sympathizer

by Richard Oliver in

i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

Richard Oliver

Again OrphanCrow that is your opinion. I don't believe that the people who I told ever did that. The people I told never repeated it to anyone else. They never saw that as the defining thing about me. I don't have proof that they did what I said, but neither do I have proof or any suspicion that they did what you suggest. Again this is a very subjective thing, with little ways to prove one way or another.

My point on this thread is that there are things that are opinion and everyone has the right to their opinion and can yell, scream and rail against Watchtower over how they feel or what is their opinion. But there are things that are just facts, and opinion cannot change facts, no matter how much they believe and feel that it is wrong or should be changed.

130

Not a sympathizer

by Richard Oliver in

i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

Richard Oliver

Orphan crow. That is your opinion and you have the right to that. What I was meaning, did I feel that people individually treated me differently, I did not. Again that was my personal experience and how I felt at the time. Did I want to find a man, of course I did. But on a individual level I never felt the people I told treated me differently.

130

Not a sympathizer

by Richard Oliver in

i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

Richard Oliver

As my own opinion, I don't think that there are alot of organizations as a whole this is homophobic. I believe even the organizations that are classically thought as homophobic aren't wholely homophobic. I look at the Republican party where many lgbtq activists believe whole heartedly that the GOP is all homophobic. But there are gay Republicans who are staunch supporters of their party, but why do they support that supposedly homophobic organization. It is my belief that they see other things in that party that they agree with, and those other things in their view is much more important than the policies on lgtbq issues.

130

Not a sympathizer

by Richard Oliver in

i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

Richard Oliver

Yes orphan crow. I agree I stated my opinion. But I predicated my opinion by saying it is my opinion that I don't believe as a group witnesses are homophobic. I base it off of my experience as a gay witness at the time. I said other people's experiences were different. So there is no fact in that scenario because it is based on each individual experience. One person's experience cannot be replicated in the exact same way as another person.

Finklestein, I can only know what my experience as a gay witness was. I had told plenty of people I was gay and never was treated differently. Some may not have had the same experience as me, so by definition one cannot claim that as a whole they are homophobic. Does watchtower say that homosexuality is a sin, yes that is a fact. But do they say and promote the same policies that other religions and truly homophobic people express I personally don't feel that. Again could someone else disagree with me, yes, that is the the opinion of me and the opinion of them.

130

Not a sympathizer

by Richard Oliver in

i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

Richard Oliver

It is human nature to look for facts and believe only facts that reinforces ones' own beliefs of what is happening in the world. This is not something new, but with the advent of technology where the barrier to distribute ones' beliefs is now virtually non-existent, this has allowed more people to express their feelings and ideas farther and wider than ever before. But there is a difference between facts and ones' opinions and ideas. I am not saying that someone's opinion is not valid because it is their opinion, but when someone expresses their opinion or idea as fact that is where the danger comes in.

I used the example of the pizza gate, people may whole heartedly believe that Clinton is the most evil person that is alive today, but that is a person's opinion not a fact.

In a previous post I highlighted a court case in Louisiana that showed that ministers and clergy are barred from reporting sexual abuse if the knowledge comes from a spiritual confession or counseling session. That is a fact that no matter how people slice it, is case law and has to be obeyed. Now people can disagree with the case law, they can feel that it is immoral and despicable and should be changed, but those are opinions. Opinions don't negate fact and cannot replace facts. Opinion can change laws, can change people's feelings and ideas, but opinion cannot change facts.

I was listening to NPR and they talked about how people believed that men's semen actually contained a little person inside of it, and this was thought by some of the most learned people in the world at that time. And that was the opinion of the people at that time, but does that mean that men's semen contained a little person inside of it because that is what people thought, of course not. New information was gained that told people that was the actual facts of the situation was. People could either accept the change in knowledge or not, but it did not negate what the actual facts are.

Someone here calls Witnesses homophobic, and I am not saying that person's view is not valid and their experiences are not what they have experienced. I know for myself I have experienced homophobic things from witnesses but I have also had boyfriends who has non-religious family members who are extremely homophobic. I don't believe witnesses as a group are homophobic but certainly people inside of the religion are.

130

Not a sympathizer

by Richard Oliver in

i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

Richard Oliver

I don't like the fact that I couldn't be gay and be a witness. I had some wonderful boyfriends and wish that I could have dated them while being a witness. I do believe that some things can be brought more out in the open and not everything has to be done in just letters to BOEs but can be brought to the attention of everyone in a congregation. I don't like the way that the broadcast has "Christian Rock" at the end of their broadcasts. Thos are just to name a few of the things.

130

Not a sympathizer

by Richard Oliver in

i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

Richard Oliver

Outlaw. Please explain why you call me an apologist?

Would you call a person on a jury who chooses not to find someone guilty, if they need more proof and facts than were given. I am not saying I should judge people, but I do require proof of things. Accusations and stories are not proof.